From a loyal reader...
really, i'm just waiting for that call from NBC telling them they're planning a reality show based on the three ring circus that is my love life . . . and it's not even 11 o'clock!

Another potential firebomb in the pocket of reason....
Another friend getting married. Are we too young for this shit?

So guess who, in their arrogance, totally destroyed the front page of this blog, in a hurry to go to bed?
Yep, that'd be me.

And the Science Survey Says.....
As much as I am disappointed that I am being considered a guinea pig, I understand Erin's reasons for doing so. That said, a couple of caveats and responses to her theory before we go any further; I believe this probably ought to be the final post on the topic.

1. I never suggested that being asked out by a woman was glamorous
I merely suggested that it was rare, due to, as Erin mentioned, gender roles. I would like to be asked out by a woman I found attractive, just as a woman would like to be asked out by an attractive man.

2. Just because a girl makes her attraction known does not guarantee the guy will ask her out
This is because some guys won't understand that it's meant as a prelude to dating, instead taking it as a compliment or statement of objective fact. Maybe those men are few and (like me) need a more explicit statement of interest; maybe such group is willfully oblivious because we spend too much time thinking only about ourselves or our lives, and miss that big neon sign.

That said, however, there are situations--particularly when people are friends--that even when one or the other is attracted to the other, the attracter assumes that they are so established in their roles that they cannot see the interest as a legitimate date-interest. One might say that this is the crux of the escaping-friending issue; one person may view the other only as a friend at the time when said other is trying to change it and vice-versa. My roommate in college and one of our best friends did this for years.

3. Male obliviousness is a crutch, no doubt
Men are dopes, in general. I don't doubt that there are some who are willfully evasive, but I refuse to believe most are. I'd bet that more often, they're willfully ignorant, choosing to pretend that the interest doesn't exist or doesn't matter.

4. Words from a reader:
Missy Langsam of Washington DC writes:
"There are guys who want to ask you out but are shy/intimidated, so they don't. But they then are thrilled when you ask them to do something, and they transition quite nicely from being acquaintance/friend to date/candidate for mr. missy role."
In short, asking a guy out is not such a bad thing, but it's not as if you can just say "Date Me!" and it will work.

Erin, that was too nice. Seriously, I had meant that to be a punny joke. Now can I have admin privileges?

I suppose she's right, though...at some point, I did friend her, mostly because that's the space I was in when we met, and I never really took her out of that before the conception set.

Erin may not be saying that men are unaware. I am. Men are dopes a lot of the
time. I know, because I've been in the friend zone with so many girls that I am
well aware of all of our most serious shortcomings, and the number one cause of
women hating men is that the man was careless with female feelings. I hate this,
of course, because it makes my job as a healthy dating man just that much
harder. That said, men can probably fake the obliviousness thing
much, much more easily; I hesitate to say that they're that conniving. We really
tend to be (with, of course, exceptions) very simple creatures, desiring and
chasing only on the most superficial of levels.

It's interesting to me that Erin seems to think that women are the ones doing
all the hoping, wishing, and praying that the men will come around. Maybe it's
because I'm so accustomed to the whole man-asks-woman-out thing, and have never
been asked out myself (formal dances notwithstanding), but I always feel like
that choice tends to be in the hands of the men. Of course there are exceptions
here as well, but the women who ask men out are so few, you'll know when she's
asking, and you'll have to be clear with her at that very moment. So I guess the
problem is, once again, men. Honestly, though... since I don't believe that men
are such good fakers (simple creatures that we are), I find it hard to believe
there are many women out there who are waiting for the guy to hop on them.

Staying friends....That's a bit different. I think the whole dynamic
of "staying friends" is probably worth an entirely separate
conversation from this one, but I bet that men and women who claim to want to be
friends after whatever-it-is are probably liars on a roughly equal level. I've
been fortunate enough to remain friends with a good number of my exes, so I may
not be the most objective evaluator thereof.

I believe the timing distinction is not moot at all. It goes further to my
criticism that most men aren't all that self-aware. It's only once interest has
been expressed implicitly (impressed explicitly?) that they pre-empt. Women, on
the other hand, are sensitive to notice the whiff of interest (or even a lacking
whiff) and blow it away before there is a chance for it to grow.

I'm not sure that friending's deliberation really is inherent to the process.
It sometimes just happens; how else do you explain how you got to know your
friends? Sometimes you just don't think about the person; it's rare, I'm sure,
but it really does happen.

I guess my conception of friending differs from Erin's, though--she seems to
think that there is a massive imbalance between people, but I view it to be a
smaller difference. You can't friend someone who tells you they love you (though
you can say, no, I can't, I don't think of you that way), but if someone thinks
you're neat enough to go on a date with, you can definitely keep them around
because they like you enough to be interested and you friend them because you
don't mind the attention.

The fact of the too-many-friends pileup is one I hadn't yet considered.... I
think it can be a turn-on for some--to be the one guy who slipped through, to
attain the unattainable, the thrill of the hunt. And since we want to pursue and
be pursued, this might actually turn out to be less of a liability than Erin
suggests. And to some girls, it might even be a benefit, since it would chase
away the guys who just want a quick fling and nothing more. But that gets into
dating tactics, rather than anti-dating tactics. I think that's as much as I've
got on this.

Questions of my own
I'd like to see what the take on all of this is from a gay perspective. Does this phenomenon take place in homosexual relationships?

Do straight folk friend gay people to escape or confront their fears?

Some Responses

First, the easy stuff; the short answers, the things I don't have to think of
nearly as much...

1. Is friending merely a cop-out/a way to avoid rejecting someone or being
rejected?

I hesitate to say that it's a way of avoiding rejecting someone. I think
it's actually a very handy tool in the arsenal. It's far better than "It's
not you, it's me," and it's a lot easier to say than "No
thanks...." If there were to be someone who used it to avoid being
rejected, I would love to talk to them about their strategy. It's true that some
will never have the courage to ask another out, but that's different from saying
they became friends to avoid being rejected.

2. Is there a difference between whether you stick an already friend in
the friend zone vs. sticking a new acquaintance in the friend zone?

No, although the message tends to be louder with the new friends. The old
ones were already friends, and while it might help after a breakup to reaffirm
that role, they probably don't need that recommendation nearly as much; even if
they entertained the notion of asking you out or trying to hook up with you,
they are aware that they were already a friend.

With a new acquaintance, if you clearly friend them, it's much easier to hear
because you are more likely to be able to determine if you really are deserving
of the "friend" tag, rather than the "possible love
interest" tag.

3. Can you ever recover from the friend zone?

Speaking from experience, absolutely. In fact some of the best relationships
I've had have come when I was friends with someone. There really is truth to the
notion that your significant other should also be your best friend. It's true
that crossing that border is a treacherous route, and more friendships have been
savaged than relationships established by those who attempted the voyage, but
that doesn't mean it's not a possible or even enjoyable endeavor.

4. Should we make a distinction between the
friend zone, and simply the "never gonna get it" zone?

I suppose there may be a distinction; this is what happens when you can't give
the person that fake number in the bar. Sure, why not. There are people in your
life who you "friend" because you can't tell them to beat it, and they
can't take the hint enough to butt out. And there are undoubtedly men and women
in all our lives who we love but would never love. That is to say, the
distinction is a bit of a Venn diagram, with a large overlap of
"friends" and "never gonnas".

Friending a la Paul
I think Erin may be missing the point a bit. Men's problems with friending generally have to do with their inability to be aware of their surroundings. It's not that we are willfully oblivious, nor that we don't care what's going on around us, but we are generally unable to see the nuances that women do.

Women Friending Men
When this happens, women tend to be well aware of what's going on--friending is done, I contend, because they are pre-emptively trying to keep the guy from trying to find the treasure in their pants. This tends to be because women buy into the societal belief that all that men ever want is sex. (Or to use Kevin Smith's quaint phrase, to give the girl "some deep dicking.") It's not the case, really. It's true that guys are always looking to have sex, but I don't think it's quite the same thing as trying to get into every girl's pants.

No, I think that girls very plainly choose to friend guys, and while some guys will automatically take that to mean that such girls explicitly don't like them--and get scarce as a result--I suggest that a girl often makes it very clear that she wants nothing. Particularly when she goes so far as to say, "I'm glad we're such good friends." So in other words, men tend to be oblivious, but when they do notice, their options end up being "be a friend" or "be gone". That's not to say that some of us don't hang around and hope for the best (I certainly do) but I don't think the guys are really hanging out just waiting for the moment the pants drop.

From the woman's standpoint, however, I think that while girls are more likely to be proactive, defensive frienders, they are also prone to negligent friending. They show no interest, don't recognize a guy's advances for what they are, and the guy assumes she's not interested. They become friends, and somewhere along the line, since she's not aware of what she's done, she treats him like a friend, since she's not aware that there's anything else to be.

Men Friending Women
Men, on the other hand, don't friend women by accident. Guys tend to view women in the dateable and the not-dateable categories. Men tend to think in terms of these poles. It's not that we're pigs or objectifying bastards; it's that it's a handy distinction, just like friend vs. foe, with-me vs. against-me, athletic vs. non-sporty. You define your friends and how you react to them in this way every day. It's just one more distinction. So when a guy says the girl's a good friend, then she should know that that's how he sees her.

A guy is just as likely to be a defensive friender as a woman is, but it tends to be because he thinks the girl is into him, and he's not interested in the girl. Girls seem to do it before the guy can make his move; guys as they begin to perceive that the girl has already begun moving.

I'm not sure I have a bottom-line, but the point is that I think men don't unintentionally friend girls on the same level that girls do guys; they are probably just as likely to be defensive and not into the girl. The reasons and timing are just different.
Insofar as the "needing to keep people in their lives" aspect, I'm hesitant to agree with Erin; I think women are more likely to want guys to be friends and stick around. When guys friend, they do it to avoid a romantic relationship, but for women, they tend to do it because they don't want the relationship right now.

I think that now that I'm looking at it, I've almost completely disagreed with Erin. It's a good thing we're friends.

I'll be right, and Erin can be wr--er, Left.
Yeah.